New UOB 4.9% NC5 Perpetual Bond – No Meat Debut (Updated)
New Issue: UOBSP 4.90% PERP NC5Y
Issue size S$850M
SOR+319. Book size: S$2.0BN,
By investor: PB 74%,
Public Sector Agencies: 4%.
Market Price 100.00/100.15 now. (still in the money because I am hearing that private bankers got a decent rebate of 0.25 cts or thereabouts)
OCBC 4% perpetual suffered slightly. Price at 99/99.50 now.
How high can UOB go ? I would say maybe 1-2 cts higher at most. The mentality of most individual investors is that buying a bank bond is similar to a fixed deposit which is a trifle alarming. A preference share is not a fixed deposit.
With the untimely Moody’s announcement on the negative outlook for Singapore banks and investment climate that is still geared towards higher interest rates, it is no wonder that only the public is keen on this issue.
The other point to note is that the institutional appetite for perpetuals have been adversely affected by Basel 3.
Given this stats, it looks like we could have a retail SGX issue in the works for the rest of the public.
S&P Comments taken from article today.
SINGAPORE (Standard & Poor’s) July 16, 2013–Standard & Poor’s Ratings
Services today assigned its ‘BBB-‘ long-term issue rating and ‘axA’ long-term
ASEAN regional scale rating to the Singapore dollar-denominated Tier-1
perpetual capital securities issued by United Overseas Bank Ltd. (UOB:
Standard & Poor’s rates the securities three notches below UOB’s stand-alone
credit profile of ‘a-‘. The issue rating reflects:
— The securities’ risk of subordination;
— UOB’s full discretion to cancel any periodic dividend payments; and
— A non-viability clause that requires the bank to permanently write
down the securities, partly or fully, if a loss-absorption event occurs.
To comply with the Monetary Authority of Singapore’s Notice 637 effective Jan.
1, 2013, the Tier-1 securities will incorporate a non-viability loss-absorbing
feature. Under this feature, UOB must write off the securities when: (1) the
regulator informs the bank that it would become non-viable without such
write-off; or (2) the regulator decides to make a public sector injection of
capital without which the bank would become non-viable.
We have assessed the proposed issue as having “intermediate” equity content,
under our ratings criteria. The securities will qualify as additional Tier-1
capital for regulatory capital purposes, and will rank senior to all
shareholders, but junior to all depositors, general creditors, and senior and
subordinated debtholders.” Source : Bloomberg
It looks like the lowest rating amongst the 3 local banks. Correct me if I am wrong.
- SGD New Deals : UOB Tier 1 and Aspial AGAIN (I did warn you before) (tradehaven.me)
- Revisiting Sgd Perpetuals (tradehaven.me)
Is DBS4.7 OTC also sufferring? I did not get anything yesterday but interested to buy, just wonder will it go up or down this week.
It is going at 100.60/101.10 from what I can see here.
This bond should carry more risk without a coupon re-fix but Basel 3 rules will persuade the bank to call back all these old regime papers that do not have the loss absorption clause.
Hi tradehaven, do you happen to have any idea what is the price of the OCBC Capital 5.1% OTC tranche? Thank you.
The OTC tranche has been called back I thought ?
Oh I see, I am not sure but I used to think that there are two tranche of OCBC 5.1 for OTC as well as for retail. The last time I see the price for the two tranche of OTC OCBC 5.1, their price are around 100+ for the one going to be called back this year and around 105 for the one callable only in 2018. For the tranche callable after 2018 coupon change to 2.5% + 3 mth SOR after 2018. So I supposed I am a bit ‘protected’ from interest rate increaswe as well.
I am wondering is it more likely for the UOB perpetual to edge up slight or downwards below 100 in the coming weeks. Am I correct to think that right after one of the OCBC 5.1 tranche is called back later this month on 29th July, there is a chance they may invest in UOB perp 4.9 hence supporting it or let it go a tiny bit above par?
Much thanks again.
You are right. There is another tranche and it is traded on the stock exchange.
It is possible that folks will invest into the new UOB, can’t really tell because we are assuming that OCBC is not going to replace their maturity.
Hi, what are the OTC prices for DBS 4.7 & UOB 4.9 today?
DBS 4.7% looking like 100.65/101.15
and UOB 4.9% looking like 100.20/100.35
Looks like the OTC prices are almost the same for UOB and DBS, which one is a better buy if you have a spare of 250K? I am worry the prices may go below par as the news of interest rates are rising soon.
UOB taken at 100.35 now 100.40 offer.
I suggest do not chase but it is just my opinion. There are alternatives.
Looked like UOB OTC price had gone up a lot today?
Despite the US Treasuries sell off, the bond was taken at 100.52 today.
actually wrong.. UST rallied last night but is coming off now.
UOB 4.9% 100.50 meaning it is about the same as DBS 4,7% OTC, btw where did you get the OTC prices from?
DBS (BBB+) is 101/102 i.e. 4/53/4.37% to call date 10/2020.
UOB (BBB-) is 100.55/100/70 4.77/4.74% to call date 07/2018.
You can sometimes see the interbank prices on a Bloomberg terminal or you can ask friends who are trading the bonds etc.
How all of us wish that the trading prices could be transparent for everyone to view, just like the primary market.
Between DBS 4.7% & UOB 4.9%, I would go for DBS for capital preservation. Higher yields are of course attractive but let’s not forget that bonds investment is still primarily on capital protection whilst earning decent interest along the way.
For the transparent reason, I hoped that SGX could list DBS 4.7% (OTC issue) on the primary market real soon even if it mean 250K (one lot) so as not to affect the retail investors.
That would mean a costly change to the prospectus which is time consuming as well which is the main reason why it has not happened. And it may scare you to know that some bonds have no prices on them at all i.e. cannot buy or sell.
I am still working on the bond directory. Hopefully we can have it online soon on a daily update basis.
Wish me luck !
Hope your “bond directory” will appear soon because I have hard time finding out the OTC prices of local bonds like DBS, UOB, OCBC, MLT etc and RMs are slow to respond maybe due to good business and multiple clients to attend. Another reason is to find out how much are the spreads charged by the RMs and I notice can be a high as 1.5% to 2% even for new bond issue.
You may be interested to know that the so-called marketplace does not really exist. There are no corp bond brokers for SGD and OTC basically means there is no obligation to quote or make a price.
RMs get away with the 1-2 cts because many investors think that bonds are like stocks and 1 ct is not too much to pay until you realise it takes 0.2% away from the yield for your 5Y UOB perp.
Hi tradehaven, wish you all the best. Thank you so much for your effort.
Yes, agreed that not all bonds could be placed on SGX. This is the reason why SGX has mentioned that “seasoned bonds” only are under their consideration.
Just for sharing, I’m paying par value 100nett for new bonds placement. For existing bonds, it could varies between 0.15, 0.2 & 0.25 for value 1mio, 500K & 250K respectively. Everything is negotiable as there are no fixed rates. I don’t pay more than 0.2 when I buy. Normally the private banker will only request for 0.25 when it is small order 250K & there are profits. Just like today after selling Courts @ 101.75.
I just found out Courts was trading at 102.25/103 yesterday so there was no way they gave you 101.75 less off the 0.25cts.
Most new bonds have PB rebate except for the HDBs etc. The UOB PB rebate was 0.25 just like Aspial. Perhaps more incentive to sell, I guess.
I just feel we can make this market a better place, after the 2 wines I had for lunch…. and I can claim to be one of the market pioneers.
Do You Hear Me, MAS ?
I think that I’ve short-changed yesterday. Aaarrgghh……
Thanks for sharing, I really need to be more careful next time round.
I guess that making some profits have make me somehow complacent.
You are a sharp investor.
Know when to sell !!!!
Hi tradehaven, thanks for sharing all your wonderful updates and thoughts with everyone again. The price of UOB 4.9 % perp seemed to be moving up a little over the last few days. From what you can see is it likely it will edge up a bit more over the next good couple of days or so? Cuz I have two lots of it and I am thinking of selling one away real soon. Mind to share your thoughts? Deep appreciation for sharing your thoughts and opinions again.
Fair chance of price going higher and I reserve my comments of what I think is a fair level.
Market is not perfect as we are taught to believe. There are greater fools.
Not quite yet. I did make some good “hit & run” trading profits for 2013 till late May. However some 70% of it was wiped out since late May. The consolation was that my last 6mths accrued interest still remained intact + the remaining 30% trading profits.
Btw I have been always quite puzzled by this. If I sell a OTC bond in broking firm X does the buyer necessarily come from broking firm X or is it regardless I show my intention to sell a bond at broking firm X or Y, their bond desk draw potential buyers from the same central pool of investors? Thank you.
Hi, when you buy UOB 4.9% perp from broking firm how much do you need to pay for fees and charges? Some banks are asking $101.5 to $102 plus custodian fees every year.
Hi Limp, I’ve paid 100.00 nett for all new placement bonds.
If I’ve bought new placement UOB 4.9%, I’ll be paying 100.00.
Custodian fees is 0.12% per year.
I’m using interbank price +/- 0.20 when buying & selling existing bonds.
Ok… I am not allowed to advise but I understand a malaysian brokerage is offering free custody.
and flat fees per year.
Broking firm goes to the credit trader in a bank, broking firm does not take risk. So if no price, then there is no price.
And there are not as many investors as you like to believe. And the best part… banks do not even talk amongst themselves…
Hi tradehaven, thanks for the kind explanations. Can I just ask, how many ‘credit trader in a bank’ are there? Is there just one ‘credit trader’ so no matter i buy or sell through broking firm A or B or C they will still be going thru the same ‘credit trader’ or there are quite a few different credit traders so different broking firm may choose to go to differ credit traders from different banks? Thank you so much.
Hi Jim, you said you are paying par value for new bonds and 0.15/0.2/0.25 for existing bonds, may I know if you buy from a bank or broking firm?
Hi Limp, it is from private bank.
Broking firms are quite opaque on their pricing as they use “NETT PRICE”.
Just for sharing:- New UOB 4.9% is still treading upwards this morning.
UOBSP 4.9 07/23/49 Corp SG57A1994579 100.650 101.350
Hi Jim, how about other bank bonds like DBS 4.7%, OCBC 4% and OCC 5.1%?
Hi Limp, DBS 4.7% is priced almost as UOB 4.9% as of this morning.
We can ignore OCC 5.1% (OTC) as the bid/offer prices are for cosmetic purpose – Mostly not tradable even you want to buy at offered price.
Tradehaven has provided the price of OCBC 4% in her most recent Bonds in Conversion.
DBSSP 4.7 100.350 101.500
Hi Jim thanks for sharing.. in your view what value do you think it can reach before it stabilises.? Btw the latest quote you mention is before or after the commission involved? Thanks!
Btw bonds kept in cdp so far has no custodian charges but i heard there will be soon ? Anyone has any info on it? Thanks
Hi oldfolk, just a guess, UOB 4.9% should stabilised between 101.50 – 102.00.
The UOB price is interbank rate, hence before any commission.
Hi Jim thanks for sharing your thoughts and info again. Previously OCBC 5.1% UOB 5.05% and DBS 4.7% all have institutional OTC tranche and retail tranche in smaller denominations of just 10K. May I ask can anyone rememember how far apart are the launching of the OTC and retail bonds which can apply at ATM usually? Has anyone heard if there will be retail tranche that one can apply in ATM for the UOB 4.9% soon? Thank you.
Hi does anyone have any idea what is the price of uob 4.9 today? Thanks
No change from last Friday.
UOBSP 4.9 07/23/49 Corp SG57A1994579 100.650 101.350
If anyone has different pricing, please care to share.
It jumped up higher. Looking like 101/101.30 now.
Thank you everyone for sharing all the price quotes. I last heard of it as 100.92 last done on Friday before market close and my broker went on holiday.
Btw does anyone so happen to remember, previously for UOB 5.05/OCBC 5.1/DBS 4.7, how long launching the institutional OTC tranche that they issue the retail tranche for us to apply thru the ATM? (simultaneously? days? weeks? months?) A week has passed since the launch of the OTC tranche, it seems no news of anything for the retail public, I am wondering if it probably means there wont be anything for the public? Thank you so much again.
Paperwork could take about another month assuming they intend to launch a retail tranche.
Then like any stock offering, it will be in the papers and have its prospectus lodged with the SGX.
The UOB5.05 had its institutional tranche come about 3 weeks before the retail. However the inst. tranche was min. denom. 10k indicating they had the intention to reopen to the retail mkt.
In this case, the new issue (if there is one) will be a different issue altogether.
Thank you tradehaven for your info on the OTC and retail tranches. I will looking out for any posts on new retail issues or rumours of any upcoming ones. Hope there will be one.
I think retail perps are so much better than OTC tranche and one of the reasons is the price is so transparent and easily available. For OTC, once my broker is on MC, I am really clueless and unfortuantely I think he’ll be on MC for quite a few days. Wish your bond price directory will be up in the near future. Thank you so much again.
Hi oldfolk, which broking firm are you using and how much they charge for buying/selling OTC tranches and any custodian fees if the bonds are under your CDP account? I am asking because my RM is quoting very high spreads and I am thinking of buying from a broking firm instead of a bank.
Hi Limp, as far as I am aware of, CDP don’t charge me custodian fees but I heard it may soon be doing that? Cos I remembered I come across something like this long ago but I cant remember where or when I see such a statement. Does anyone happen to know if there’s such a fee by CDP soon? The few broking firm charge around 0.25 or so, how much does the bank charge you? I think OTC bonds purchased in bank can be easily transferred to CDP at a very small one-time fees so avoid the custodian fees which have to pay regularly I think. Btw does anyone know what is the latest price of UOB 4.9 now? Thank you
I believe you may be right. There could be a handling fee on the coupon of 0.125 cents subject to total cap of 600 bucks of some sort but I am not sure about that.
Most of our bonds are usually custodised with our banks and there is also a charge of between 0.125 or 0.25% on coupon. They do not call it custodian fees so the selling point is still custody is free.
I heard from a broking house that they do not charge that but there is a one time transaction cost of 0.135 cts on top of the sell price which they claim is 0.15 to 0.25 cts above the interbank.
But the most interesting angle is this.
If you do not know what the interbank price is, how would you know that they are just taking their regular commission and not more ?
Haha. Everyone pretends that they are ok with it but the truth is that over 90% of buyers do not kow where the interbank price is.
Hi tradehaven, thank you so much for the information. I never pay too much attention to see if my coupon is less than what it is supposed to be. So there is such a handling fee all the while or it just started or is starting soon? I noticed the custodian fee for banks cos I see a very obvious and significant amount deducted from my account every quarter. I was never told by the banks that they are charging custodian fees till I noticed the amount deducted in my monthly statement.
Btw do you happen to have any ‘whispers’ or ‘rumours’ if UOB is going to launch something for the public to apply thru ATM?
Or based on many stuff such as the maturity of debt of the companies etc, which few companies may be launching new issues of bonds soon? It would be great if you can suggest a few of such potential ones so I can so some homework first to find out how their exisiting bonds are doing etc. Very frequently, when I was told of a new launch, I have hardly any knowledge of the gearing etc of the company and its a bit rush to find out.
Btw if I wish to get one more of the OTC bonds, you think its a good time now? When FED officially begin to taper QE, say in Sept, will there be another sell-off and drop in bond price? If there is some chance it may happen I was thinking of waiting for the taper first. I am also wondering has UOB 4.9 perp moved up further this week.
Thank you so much.
UOB 4.9% looking like 101/101.25 today.
I wish I could help but I have been told that I may need to get a licence for this.
My strategy so far has been to provide information without advising but with enough information for readers to make their own informed choice. For instance like providing the list of most leveraged names and thus, dangerous names etc.
Am working on a disclaimer just in case I get into trouble answering to comments that are deliberately sent to “bait” me.
Sorry, it is just a very tough environment because I suppose they just do not want people to ask too many questions and do as they are told. Banks need that to make money so we cannot blame them and I, too, was responsible in the past for making the market as in-transparent as I could.
There is no such thing as a functioning secondary market here if you must know but if that information is known to buyers, then they would not buy. So the pretense that there is an active marketplace when banks do not even talk to each other and there are no brokers (we put them out of business).
And btw, the reality is that what goes down must go up. That goes for interest rates too.
Have a good day.
The bank I used quoted me $105.60 for new UOB 4.9% and I think it is too much and custodian fees are 0.1% pa. For broking firms do they require you to be an AI (asset more than $2M or annual salary more than $300k)?
Hi Tradehaven thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and thoughts. I fully understand that any views or thoughts you are generous enough to share are your personal views and investors and readers like me have to make our own decision and we be fully responsible for our decisions. If there so happen to be any advise or information you dun mind to share it would be a wonderful stroke of luck to any investors/reader.
The in-transparency of OTC bonds I find is highly disadvantageous to simple investors like me. For those perpetuals traded in SGX for public, such as DBS 4.7, one can easily monitor the trend of the price and accumulate on weakness and sell on good price but for OTC bonds we cant even monitor the price if we wish to.
When there is a IPO share/bond for public, there’s usually days or weeks for investors to slowly find out about the issue and company before the closing date. For OTC bonds, we have to make the decision within that one or two hours and often I almost know nothing about the company. 🙁
Btw the UOB 5.05 is callable Sept 15 so I supposed they will make an official statement before Aug 15th that they are redeeming the perpetual or they wont make any more statements since they have stated that their intention of issuing the UOB 4.9 is to use the funds to redeem the UOB 5.05. Btw I am wondering is it likely or possible that UOB just redeem the OTC tranche of UOB 5.05 but don’t redeem the one traded in SGX in denominations of 100 shares for the public? Cos I hold quite a big bit of the UOB 5.05 for public and I am wondering if they are redeeming it or issuing something for public to replace it.
Thank you so much for your time and patience and sharing your thoughts and wisdom again. Will look out for any new post especially if there’s any news or whispers on any new OTC bonds or UOB perpetual for public. Thank you so much again.
any good bonds recently? all the usual ones no offer..
Oldfolk, retailers like us have been disadvantaged from the start. We are not the big fish. Firstly, it makes no sense for companies to seek a public bond listing due to cost and time. Secondly, look at the demand for insti bonds! They are all snapped up in hours! With such appetites, why would bankers/companies bother to do a public listing of bonds? And that is also why they would have expected people who buying into OTC bonds to know what they are doing.
For the UOB ones, they are 2 separate issues.. they can choose to redeem either one, both or none. Wont know unless they announce.. but a quick and dirty way is to look at the size of the recent issue and compare against the past issues to make a smart guess.
One thing I am not so sure is the seniority of the bonds/preference shares.. As far as I know the ranking goes like this (most senior first, list not exhaustive):
1. Secured bonds
2. Senior bonds
3. Lower Tier 2
4. Tier 1
6. Preference shares
7. Ordinary shares
I am a bit confused because some times 5 and 6 are ranked together. And some times a perpetual can be classified as a T1 (not sure if I have read wrongly somewhere)? Would like someone to clarify.
My question is does the seniority even matter for quality blue chips? Let’s use UOB for example. To me I will just buy the highest yielding from 1-6 (assuming same tenor, reset features and stuff) because if UOB goes down I will take it that our country is also facing imminent collapse. It is something that “is too big to fail”. So in cases of blue chip bonds/pref shares, isnt safe to say “just go for the yield?”
Of course, if you are into higher risk bonds (eg oxley, olam etc), it matters.
Would appreciate comments that agree/disagree with my thoughts.
No more lower tier 2. It is just tier 2 now.
Perpetuals and preference shares are generic terms, you have to look into the terms and conditions of the bond offering. And there are senior perpetuals (Cheung Kong, Swiber and Singpost) too which ranks them along with senior bonds in times of default (subject to potential litigation I would imagine as the true senior bondholders will protest as perps mostly count as equity on the balance sheet and the seniority is by a private arrangement).
Hi newbibondinvestor, thanks for sharing your thoughts and information again.
Btw the bond price list updated weekly in Bond Conversations is a really wonderful source of information of paramount importance and I very deeply appreciated tradehaven to take the trouble to share with everyone again. The only tiny problem I encounter with it is that I am a bit not sure the way the counters are listed. I don’t think its by alphabetical order of the company or ascending order of coupon. If any one so happen to know the way the counters are arranged, kindly let me know so it will be much easier for me to locate a particular counter when in a hurry. May I express my sincere thanks for all these great posts and the time and effort of Tradehaven again. 🙂
The bonds are sorted by issue dates, from the latest to the oldest.
The new bond directory I am working on will contain all the bonds including those issued before 2012 except pte placements and should allow you to sort by all their info fields.
Wish me luck.
Hi tradehaven, thank you so much for your explanation of the sorting. I will bear that in mind. Like everyone else, I am looking very much forward to the new bond directory, cant wait for it to be here 🙂 Meanwhile, I was wondering if and when there’s a tiny bit of spare time available for some weeks, is it feasible to have Bonds in Conversation bond Price List published twice a week at times instead of once a week? Cos I somehow feel some bond price move quite a bit in the same week and knowing it twice every week will be indeed helpful to see any trends and make the necessary decision to sell or buy. I am really sorry to be like a ‘greedy’ kid and ask for two sweets when I am given one. Haha.
Thank you so much again and have a fantastic weekend.
It is unhealthy to be checking on the prices too much especially if you are a long term investor. Prices move does not mean anything in this market anyway, sometimes nothing goes through.
At this stage, it is not possible for me. I have PSLE this year and we will be switching websites next week (will keep you posted). The directory should be ready in a few weeks time and I think you will like it.
Hi tradehaven, thanks for taking the time and trouble for the directory again. It’ll certainly benefit everyone tremendously. Btw I dont track the bond price of specific counters so often unless I am waiting for the opportunity to sell it or waiting for the market to weaken and buy the counter. There’s a few counters that I am keen to get, it was trading at or ard par value few weeks back but it is comfortably above par around 102 + now. I am looking for the right opportunity to buy it hence have been wondering if the eventual tapering in Sept will lead to another plunge in bond price.
Wish you all the best for your involvment in PSLE 🙂 Looking forward to the new website and bond directory too 🙂 Thank you Sir
Btw may I ask this, do you happen to know if an investor has some bonds kept in the Custodian Account of a Bank in Singapore and this bank declares bankcrupcy, what willl happen to my bond? Eg if I keep Genting bonds in Bank X, am I exposed to both the defualt risk of Gentings and Bank X or Gentings only? Cos different ppl from the same bank tell me something different, I am wondering if there’s a general guideline by MAS that will apply to all cases. Thank you so much.
I believe the assets are ring-fenced for custodian accounts but am not 100% sure.
Like in the case of MF Global, the assets still belong to the clients. As to those held on margin, I am not sure as to when the client can exert ownership.
Have to check with those who with the MF Global experience.
Hi tradehaven, many thanks for sharing your thoughts again. I had the impression that they are ring fenced too. I was told previously by the bank that should the bank default, there will be alternative arrangements so another institution will be taking over the custodian account but the assets still belong to me too. Just that someone from the bank recently told me otherwise recently and I got worried aftert that. Thank you so much for sharing your kind thoughts and information again.
I hope your “new bond directory” will be out soon, are you going to present it in html or image format and how often it will get updated?
Hi tradehaven, the price of the retail tranche preference share of UOB 5.05 went up quite significantly to well above 102.5 (last done 102.6). Do you happen to know if there are some unexpected news that UOB is not redeeming it ? The volume of trade was very high too. If UOB redeem it next month, wont the buyer make a significant loss? Cos the buyer will only get $ 252 coupon but need to pay at least $260 + $20 of brokage. Thank you so much, Sir.
If anyone so happen to have any information on this, do kindly share here too.
Did you see this? http://infopub.sgx.com/FileOpen/UOB-A2013-90.ashx?App=Announcement&FileID=250361
NOTICE OF REDEMPTION & PAYMENT OF FINAL PREFERENTIAL DIVIDEND
to the holders of S$1,320,000,000 5.05% Class E Non-Cumulative Non-Convertible Preference Shares
Can someone kindly post the latest OTC prices for UOB 4.9, OCBC 4 and DBS 4.7?
DBS 4.7% callable 2020 is looking like 100.88/101.08 yest close. SGX showing 107.00 bid which is clean price of 105.60 (yield 3.80%).
UOB 4.9% callable 2018 is looking like 101/101.15 4.66/4.63%.
OCBC 4% perpetual is looknig like 98.65/99.65 4.07/4.02%.
Hi Limp, thanks for the link. Thank you so much. I keep checking at the announcement under the UOB preference share counter page but never see it yesterday when I saw the price going up. I am still quite puzzled why when they confirm the redemption the price goes up? Isnt the buyer making a confirmed loss by buying in at higher then 102.525 even if he doesn’t need to pay any commission to broker? I guess it doesn’t matter now just that I am still wondering why. Much thanks for the link again.